Conversation with A.S. Yakovlev, 26 March 1941

Stalin: What is your main conclusion, Comrade Yakovlev, after your acquaintance with the aviation technology of Western countries?

Yakovlev (aircraft designer, Deputy People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry; he was sent to Italy, France, England, and Germany to study the development of air forces -- Ed.): From the standpoint of the general architecture of the aircraft and the bold solution of certain crucial problems of aircraft construction, our country is not inferior to Western Europe. However, Comrade Stalin, we lag behind them in the quality of production, in the refinement of our machines in the details.

Stalin: Tell me briefly about the state of the air forces of the countries you visited.

Yakovlev: If you will permit, I shall begin with Italy.

Italy was never a leading aviation country, although Mussolini's government makes every effort to create the impression it needs. To this end, Mussolini's government, which combines the post of head of government with the post of Minister of Aviation, generously encourages all manner of record-setting and sporting flights, allocates large sums to individual designers and pilots for organizing transatlantic flights, and spares no expense in creating "showcase" institutes and airfields.

The Italian pilot Donati in a "Caproni" aircraft managed to set the world altitude record -- about 14,000 meters, and the pilot Agello in the racing aircraft "Macchi-72" set the world speed record -- 710 km per hour. However, most of the machines we saw at Montecelio, including the latest models, were nothing original in their design. It is one thing to build individual record-setting aircraft, and quite another to create a powerful air fleet. Even a cursory acquaintance with Italy's aviation industry revealed a discrepancy between the imagined and the real.

In France we visited the factories of the most famous French designers -- Bleriot, Renault, Potez, and Messier. We saw nothing new or modern in the technology of aircraft manufacture. Each time I inspected aviation factories in France, I could not help comparing them with ours. And each time I came to the deeply satisfying conclusion that in scale and quality of equipment, not a single French enterprise I saw could bear any comparison with any one of our ordinary aviation factories.

Stalin: You are not exaggerating?

Yakovlev: I am not exaggerating, Comrade Stalin; that is how it actually is. By the mid-1930s, France had drowned in an enormous number of new aircraft models and became completely confused in choosing which ones could be put into serial, mass production and used in wartime. The result was a lag behind the probable adversary -- Hitler's Germany.

In 1939, when the Second World War broke out, France found itself without aircraft, or at least without such aircraft as could compete with the German "Messerschmitts" and "Junkers," not to mention the fact that German aviation far outnumbered the French quantitatively.

This was one of the reasons France suffered such a disgraceful defeat. While studying the French air forces, I formed the impression that French rulers were more prepared for capitulation than for resistance.

As for England, the "Spitfire" fighter and the "Lancaster" bomber form the backbone of Britain's armed forces. The heavy four-engine "Lancaster" has a bomb load of 6-7 tons at a maximum speed of 450 kilometers per hour.

The English "Hurricane" fighters and "Whitley" bombers cannot compete with German aircraft in their flight-combat qualities. All the hopes of the English rest on the superb "Spitfire" fighter, which has been put into serial production.

We also saw two new English monoplanes: a fighter from the "Hawker" firm called the "Hurricane" and the very latest specimen of English aviation technology -- the "Supermarine" fighter. Judging by all appearances, it is precisely the improved "Hurricanes" and "Spitfires" that play the main role in repelling air attacks on England by fascist Germany.

Now about our potential adversary -- fascist Germany.

The German aviation industry essentially produces three types of aircraft: the "Messerschmitt-109," the "Junkers-87," and the "Junkers-88." The transport aircraft "Junkers-52" and the reconnaissance plane "FW-189" are also produced. In small quantities, the heavy fighter "Messerschmitt-110" and the clearly obsolete bombers "Heinkel-111" and "Dornier-217" are also built. The "Heinkel" has a speed of approximately 430 kilometers per hour. The "Dornier" is somewhat faster.

In Germany's aircraft fleet, the "Messerschmitt-109" predominates, which the Germans proudly call the "king of the air."

As is known, in Spain our "I-15" and "I-16" fighters first encountered the "Messerschmitts" in combat. These were the first German "Me-109B" fighters, whose speed did not exceed 470 kilometers per hour. Our fighters were not inferior to the "Messerschmitts" in speed, and the armament of both was roughly equivalent -- machine guns of 7.6 mm caliber. The maneuverability of our machines, however, was superior, and the "Messers" took quite a beating from them. As a result, we were not in a hurry to modernize our own fighter aviation.

The Germans, however, took account of the experience of the first aerial combats in the skies of Spain earlier than we did and made more effective use of the lessons of the Spanish proving ground.

They radically improved their combat machines, the "Me-109," by installing the "Daimler Benz-601" engine of 1,100 horsepower, thanks to which the flight speed increased to 570 kilometers per hour. They armed it with a 20 mm cannon, thereby increasing its firepower.

In this form, the "Messerschmitt" fighter went into serial production under the designation "Me-109E."

Two dozen "Me-109Es" were sent to Spain in August 1938. The superiority of these aircraft over our "I-15" and "I-16" fighters was obvious.

Stalin: I am familiar with the history of the matter. So you believe that the bulk of our fighters cannot withstand the German ones?

Yakovlev: Only our new fighters -- the "MiG," "Yak," and "LaGG" -- can withstand them. These appeared only as prototypes in 1940, but have now been put into serial production. Unfortunately, Comrade Stalin, the comparison of our bombers with the German "Junkers-88" is also not in our favor. In speed and bomb load, the Germans have an advantage in bomber aviation as well. Our dive-bomber "Pe-2," which surpasses the German bombers, has only recently been put into serial production.

And we do not have an aircraft for close support of ground troops similar to the German dive-bomber "Junkers-87."

The Ilyushin armored ground-attack aircraft "Il-2," which surpasses the "Ju-87" in all respects, has also only recently been put into serial production.

Stalin: So it turns out that we acted correctly when in 1939 we concluded the non-aggression pact with fascist Germany, which gave us a year and a half of respite?

Yakovlev: It was a truly brilliant decision, Comrade Stalin. The gain in time was especially precious for our aviation: it allowed us during 1939-1940 to create new, fully modern types of combat aircraft and by 1941 to put them into serial production. Without this, the Germans would certainly have defeated us in 1939, together with the Japanese.

Stalin: Well, as the saying goes, that remains to be seen, but you are right -- it would have been very difficult. So it turns out we outsmarted Hitler, and his "Nordic" cunning did not help him?

Yakovlev: It turns out so, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin: Wait. Tell me about your general impressions from your last visit to Germany. You are an observant person and must have noticed quite a few interesting things.

Yakovlev: It depends on what interests you, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin: What is the general atmosphere in Berlin? Can you feel that Germany is at war with England?

Yakovlev: There are no visible traces of war in the city. Allied aviation frightens more than it acts. During its raids, the atmosphere in Berlin resembles a training air-raid drill more than anything else. However, when an air-raid alarm is announced, the Germans dutifully hide in bomb shelters and sit in them until the all-clear.

During the day there are queues near the shops, and ordinary life goes on in the city. Most men wear some kind of uniform: military, SS, police, or the uniform of the fascist party -- black trousers and a brown jacket with a swastika armband. Even the street sweepers wear official caps. Everywhere there are posters depicting Churchill with the inscription "Enemy Number One" and slogans: "God punish England!" The favorite topic in conversations on international and political themes is mocking the English.

For some reason, the Hitlerites also have an extremely derisive attitude toward their allies, the Italians. One of the German aircraft designers told me the following joke over dinner: "Italian tanks differ from German ones in that they have three speeds in reverse and one forward." In German cinemas they show a very popular German documentary newsreel about the war with Poland: "Poland in Flames" -- the barbarous bombing of that country by the German air force.

Stalin: I have seen that film. Such a thing could only take place against a country with extremely weak air defense.

Yakovlev: Jews in Berlin are required to wear on their left arm a yellow armband with the black letter "J" ("Jude"). In taxis one can often see signs: "I do not serve Jews," and in cinemas at the ticket window: "Tickets are not sold to Jews." On the boulevards, benches for Jews with the inscription "Fur Juden" (for Jews) are painted yellow and turned with their backs to the boulevard. And so it is throughout Germany. Jewish pogroms take place.

Stalin: I have been informed that the Hitlerites are preparing the complete physical extermination of the Jewish population both in Germany itself and in the countries it has occupied. For this purpose they have developed a special plan for the extermination of the Jewish population, code-named the "Wannsee Plan." It is a pity about the industrious and talented Jewish people, with its six-thousand-year history. Many of its representatives, being prominent scientists in the most diverse fields, have made a substantial contribution to the preparation of the Soviet Union for defense. Today the real hope for the salvation of the Jewish people is the Soviet Union. The only country in the world where citizens of Jewish nationality truly feel themselves -- as, indeed, do all other peoples inhabiting our great country -- equal and free people.

The English and Americans, who present themselves as friends of the Jews while at the same time having created and nurtured the Hitlerites, talk a great deal about the need to save them but do practically nothing for this purpose, allowing Hitler to put his cannibalistic plans into action.

Yakovlev: And why do the Hitlerites hate the Jews so much?

Stalin: It is a matter of capitalist competition. The magnates of the Ruhr are seizing the capital of Jewish capitalists in Germany. And for camouflage, under the banner of racial theory, they set their attack dogs in the form of the Hitlerites on all Jews. What, in your view, is the distinctive trait of modern Germans?

Yakovlev: Self-assurance.

Stalin: Well, they have always had no shortage of that, and it has been their undoing.

Yakovlev: But now, Comrade Stalin, as a result of fascist propaganda, all of them without exception -- from the designer to the porter -- have a sense of superiority over all other peoples.

Stalin: Untermenschen -- subhumans: that is what, I believe, the modern Germans call all other peoples?

Yakovlev: Precisely so, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin: No, we are right to punish nationalists of all stripes and hues so severely. They are the best helpers of our enemies and the worst enemies of their own peoples. After all, the cherished dream of nationalists is to break up the Soviet Union into separate "national" states, and then it will become easy prey for enemies. The peoples inhabiting the Soviet Union would for the most part be physically exterminated, and those remaining would be turned into voiceless and wretched slaves of the conquerors. It is no accident that the contemptible traitors to the Ukrainian people -- the leaders of the Ukrainian nationalists, all those Melnyks, Konovaletses, and Banderas -- have already received their assignment from German intelligence to incite among Ukrainians, who are the same as Russians, hatred of Russians and to seek the separation of Ukraine from the Soviet Union. It is all the same old song from ancient times, going back to the period of the Roman Empire: divide and rule. The English have been especially successful in fomenting national discord and inciting peoples against one another. Thanks to such tactics, by bribing the wretched and venal leaders of various peoples, capitalist island England -- the first factory of the world, negligibly small in its dimensions -- was able to seize enormous territories, enslave and plunder many peoples of the world, and create the "Great" British Empire, in which, as the English boastfully declare, the sun never sets.

With us, while we are alive, that trick will not work. So the Hitlerite fools are wasting their time calling the Soviet Union a "house of cards" that will supposedly collapse at the first serious test, counting on the fragility of the friendship of the peoples inhabiting our country today, hoping to set them against one another. In the event of a German attack on the Soviet Union, people of different nationalities inhabiting our country will defend it, sparing no effort and no sacrifice, as their beloved Motherland. However, one should not underestimate the nationalists. If they are allowed to act with impunity, they will cause no end of trouble. That is why they must be kept in an iron bridle, not allowed to undermine the unity of the Soviet Union.

Tell me, Comrade Yakovlev, what is the attitude of German pilots toward the Soviet air forces?

Yakovlev: Their attitude is one of obvious contempt, Comrade Stalin. They consider our aviation to be inferior, "Asiatic," incapable of withstanding their "invincible" "Luftwaffe."

Stalin: "Invincible" ... That is what will ultimately destroy them. Underestimating the enemy is an extremely dangerous thing.

Yakovlev: Comrade Stalin, permit me to ask a question -- why did the Germans reveal their military secrets to me, showing me their newest military aviation technology?

Stalin: Presumably they wanted to intimidate us. To break our will to resist -- a trick that is not new. Genghis Khan did the same thing: his agents would spread reports of the might of his army among the peoples whose territory the Mongol-Tatar cavalry was about to invade. And it must be said that this trick of Genghis Khan in many cases worked flawlessly, paralyzing the will to resist in the victims of aggression. But the Hitlerites are mistaken in relying on this trick. We are not easily frightened.

One must be very vigilant. The times are such ... We have assigned a guard to the weapons designer Degtyaryov; he used to carry all his secrets with him and work at home. We forbade it ... But of course you cannot assign a guard to everyone, and your business is different -- an aircraft is not a pistol.

Yakovlev: You may rest assured -- state secrets are well protected in the design bureaus.

Stalin: All the same, have a talk with the designers on this subject. I know there are still careless people among you. An extra conversation will do no harm.

Yakovlev: Yes, Comrade Stalin, I shall gather the designers and speak with them on your behalf ...

Stalin: Why on my behalf? Say it yourself. Many people like to hide behind my back, referring to me on every trifle; they don't want to take responsibility upon themselves. You are a young man, still unspoiled, and you know your business. Don't be afraid to act on your own authority, and your prestige will be greater, and people will respect you ...

Comrade Yakovlev, do everything possible to ensure that the new types of aircraft reach our armed forces as quickly as possible. On these matters, come to me at any time of day or night.

(From the book: Zhukhrai V. Stalin: Truth and Lies. M., 1996. Pp. 33-43.)