Translated from: ru/1917/1917-11_razgovor_po_pryamomu_provodu_s_predstavitelem.txt

At the apparatus: a member of the Central Committee of the Ukrainian Social-Democratic Labor Party, Porsh, and a member of the Regional Committee of the Bolsheviks, Sergei Bakinsky.

Porsh speaking. Our party would like to ascertain the views of the Central Committee of the Bolsheviks on national questions in general, and in particular with regard to Ukraine. Our party, as well as the entire Central Rada, holds the view that the central government should be formed by the entire organized democracy of the state and that the central government should be a socialist one. With regard to Ukraine, the supreme regional authority is the Ukrainian Central Rada, and the form of government in Ukraine is the Ukrainian People's Republic, standing in federal relations within the general state organism of Russia. For the establishment of the constitution of the Ukrainian Republic, a Ukrainian Constituent Assembly is being convened; the latest date for elections to the Constituent Assembly is set for 27 December, and the opening of its work for 9 January. Our party believes that it is already possible at the present time to establish, within certain limits, by mutual agreement between the center and the regions, the federal form of the Russian Republic. Our party holds the view that in the formation of the central organ of democracy, on which the new central government will have to base itself in its activity, the regional republican governments should also take part, on a common platform of governmental activity. In addition to the questions of peace, land, and so forth, the platform should include recognition of the republics that have been formed and of their governments in relation to the central state authority.

In view of this, our party is interested in the question of how the Central Committee of the Bolsheviks relates to these points. Does it recognize in principle the Central Rada as the supreme regional authority pending the Constituent Assembly, and its right in the sphere of administration and legislation to resolve all questions of local socio-economic, political, and national-cultural life? Besides this, we are interested in receiving information from you on the status of the matter of unifying all the democracy in a single central organ. I await your answers to these questions, and then I shall pose several practical questions requiring urgent resolution by the People's Commissars.

Stalin. I reply. I am the authorized representative of the government -- the Council of People's Commissars. The views of the Bolshevik Party on the national question are well known: read the resolution of the April Conference. If you wish to hear the opinion on the national question of the government of the Russian Republic, I am at your service.

Porsh. With pleasure.

Stalin. I reply. The questions you have raised are subject to decision not by the Bolshevik Party, but by the central authority elected by the Second All-Russian Congress of Soviets of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies and recognized by the recently concluded Congress of Peasants' Deputies.

The views of this government on the national question are as follows: recognition of nations' right to full self-determination, up to and including secession and the formation of an independent state. The will of the nation is determined by referendum or through national constituent assemblies. If the will of the nation declares itself in favor of a federal republic, the government can have nothing against it. This is the right of every nation, and the government will respect it. Authority in the region, as in other areas, must belong to the entirety of the workers', soldiers', and peasants' deputies, including the organizations of the Rada. In this sphere, a wide field for agreement between the Central Rada and the Council of People's Commissars is provided. It would therefore be expedient to arrange a meeting of representatives of the Central Rada and representatives of the People's Commissars. As for autonomy -- say, for Ukraine -- it must be full, unhindered by commissars. From above, no tutelage and no supervision over the Ukrainian people is admissible.

On the question of authority and its composition, I can say the following:

On the night of 15 November, the Central Executive Committee of the Soviet of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies and the corresponding organ of the Soviet of Peasants' Deputies, created at the recent Congress of Peasants, merged. Left Socialist-Revolutionaries will enter the government. Right Socialist-Revolutionaries and Mensheviks have excluded themselves from the revolutionary-democratic coalition.

The front -- nine-tenths of it -- is for the Council of People's Commissars. Military operations have been suspended until 19 November. The matter concerns an armistice on all fronts. There has been no reply yet to the notes sent to the Allied embassies. On 19 November, armistice negotiations are expected. I would like to know: does the opinion of your party represent the opinion of the Central Rada on all questions, and especially on the national question? Are you a representative of the Central Rada, or do you represent only the party?

I would also like to report that today representatives of the Petrograd section of the Central Rada, by agreement with the Council of People's Commissars, took the national Ukrainian relics -- banners, and so forth -- which had been taken from the Ukrainians in the era of Catherine II, with the intention of taking them to Ukraine.

I would like to ask: what are the relations between you and the Central Rada and the local Soviets in Ukraine? Do you have contact with the local Bolshevik organizations? Can the Council of People's Commissars count on the cooperation of the Central Rada, after everything I have told you about the views of the Council on the national question and on authority?

Porsh. I am a representative of the party that holds the leading position in the Central Rada. At the same time, I am a member of the General Secretariat and am the General Secretary of Labor. The General Secretariat is the government of the Ukrainian People's Republic, formed by the Central Rada on 1 November. My personal opinion is: cooperation by the Central Rada in organizing a central organ of democracy, as the source of general state authority, in the direction I indicated at the outset, is conceivable and possible. Relations with the local Bolshevik organizations are characterized by the fact that the local Regional Committee of the Bolsheviks insists on convening a regional congress of Soviets of Workers', Soldiers', and Peasants' Deputies of Ukraine for the purpose of electing a new composition of the Central Rada. We, however, consider that the Central Rada, by its composition, is a Soviet of Workers', Peasants', and Soldiers' Deputies, elected at congresses of peasants, workers, and soldiers, the most recent congress of soldiers' representatives, representing 4 million men, having concluded only on 1 November of this year. At the same time, we consider that the scheduling of elections to the Ukrainian Constituent Assembly renders this congress superfluous, as it would be an impediment to the work of the General Secretariat and to the prompt implementation of socio-economic reforms, outlined in general terms in the Universal of the Central Rada, which was issued on 7 November and is presumably known to you. These interrelations create nervousness among all democratic Ukrainian and even non-Ukrainian organizations and hinder calm work -- in anticipation of a repetition in Kiev of the Moscow events. As for the Petrograd section of the Central Rada, as you put it, the Central Rada maintains full contact with it. I believe I have answered all your questions? If you have no further questions, may I put two practical questions to you?

First question: Ukrainian military units of the Petrograd district, and in particular of Petrograd, wish to go to Ukraine, but according to a delegation, they are being prevented from doing so in Petrograd. Could I ask you to help satisfy their entirely understandable aspirations?

Second question: Local branches of the State Bank, which serve the front and rear as well as industry, are experiencing great difficulties in money circulation, owing to the lack of banknotes. This circumstance is causing the most serious complications in industry, especially in such a seasonal industry as the sugar-beet industry, not to mention the fact that the lack of money may provoke unrest among the working masses, to whom, as well as to employees and officials, there is nothing with which to pay. Hence the request to help supply all branches of the State Bank in Ukraine regularly and in sufficient measure with money. I am finished.

Stalin. I reply. On the first question, I can report that today or tomorrow several thousand Ukrainian soldiers, with the consent of the Commander-in-Chief, will depart for Ukraine. It goes without saying that in normal times the place of residence of Ukrainian soldiers may be Ukraine. But the war complicates the matter, and without the authorization of the appropriate military authorities, the free movement of one or another national group from the army must be kept to a minimum. I say this as a rule, knowing that every rule admits of exceptions. As for the second question, I shall report it today to the Council of People's Commissars and have not the slightest doubt that all measures within its power will be taken.

Sergei Bakinsky. I await questions.

Stalin. What is the situation in Kiev?

Sergei Bakinsky. Power is in the hands of the Central Rada, which does not consider it possible to transfer authority on the local level to the Soviets. This compels us to regard with great skepticism Comrade Porsh's assertion that the Central Rada is itself a Congress of Soviets. We therefore insist on the immediate convocation of an All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets of Workers', Soldiers', and Peasants' Deputies, believing that authority pending the convocation of the Ukrainian Constituent Assembly cannot remain with the Ukrainian Central Rada and must pass in the region to the regional Congress of Soviets, and on the local level to the Soviets.

Yesterday, Comrade Luganovsky arrived from Kharkov and reports that there, too, the Central Rada is waging a struggle against the Soviets. The situation is rather acute, but I suppose that Comrade Porsh's reports about the possible repetition of the Moscow events are unfounded. Until now, without having entered into official contact with the Central Rada, we have nevertheless not gone for a complete break with the Ukrainian Social Democrats and Socialist-Revolutionaries, whose representatives in the Kiev Soviets resist the implementation of the principle of Soviet power even on the local level. In any case, the situation must be recognized as sufficiently serious, and it is desirable to discuss it seriously. We intend in the near future to convene a regional congress of Soviets of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies, and also a regional congress of our party for our region jointly with the Kharkov region. Has Comrade Pyatakov come to you, and has he informed you sufficiently about the state of affairs?

Stalin. I learned everything from him about Kiev. We all think it is absolutely essential to hold a regional congress of workers', soldiers', and peasants' deputies. We do not understand the distrust with which Comrade Porsh regards the idea of such a congress. We believe that you -- those in Kiev, Odessa, Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, and elsewhere -- must undertake the convocation of such a congress, of course jointly with the Central Rada. If the Central Rada refuses to cooperate with you in this matter, which seems to us unlikely, then convene it without the Rada. Soviet power must be accepted on the local level. This is the revolutionary commandment from which we cannot depart, and we do not understand how the Ukrainian Central Rada can dispute this axiom. In a few days, Comrade Zinoviev will come to you, and you will have the opportunity to discuss in detail the questions that interest you. That is all for now. Do you have anything else to say?

Sergei Bakinsky. No, I have something more. Are you at the apparatus? It is extremely necessary for us to receive urgent telegraphic reports from you daily on the state of affairs, addressed to the newspaper Proletarskaya Mysl, with a copy to the Soviet of Workers' Deputies, since our large newspaper serves both the region and both fronts. It would be highly desirable to receive, even as a loan, at least twenty-five thousand rubles as working capital for the newspaper, which will undoubtedly pay for itself if it regularly receives information from you.

Stalin. I shall report your proposal regarding the newspaper to the Central Committee of the party today. When will your regional Congress of Soviets be convened?

Bakinsky. I cannot tell you and will ask our regional committee of Soviets to answer this question for you.

Stalin. Very well. What else do you have to say?

Bakinsky. Has Comrade Yuri Pyatakov come to you?

Stalin. Yes, he is with us.

Bakinsky. And will he return to Kiev soon?

Stalin. He will remain in Petrograd... Once more I repeat: our common opinion is that a regional congress of workers', soldiers', and peasants' deputies in Ukraine must be convened immediately. The questions of Soviet power in the center and locally admit of no concessions. I cannot conceive of any other method of forming regional authority or any other form of it. I do not understand the Rada's distrust of the idea of Soviet power.

Bakinsky. This distrust is explained by the fact that, both in its structure and its composition, the Rada is far from being a democratic institution.

Stalin. That must be so. And it is understandable from the fact that the Central Rada is annexing ever more new provinces from above, without asking the inhabitants of those provinces whether they wish to be part of Ukraine.

We all think here that in such cases the question must and can be decided only by the population itself through polls, referendums, and so on. Insofar as the Central Rada does not do this but annexes new provinces quite arbitrarily and from above, it itself exposes itself as an undemocratic organization. The Congress of Soviets of Ukraine must, among other things, give its opinion on the method of polling the population on the question of belonging to one or another region. I am finished.

Bakinsky. I, too, have nothing more.

Stalin. Goodbye, comrade.

Bakinsky. Goodbye. Greetings to all the comrades and, in particular, to Comrade Lenin.

Stalin. I shall pass on your greetings to Lenin, to Pyatakov, and to the others right now. I am leaving. Goodbye.

Bakinsky. Goodbye.

Porsh. I ask Comrade Stalin to remain at the apparatus. The opinion about the undemocratic nature of the Central Rada contradicts the factual side of the matter and the policy of the Central Rada, consistently pursued from the first days of its formation in all political and socio-economic questions. There are no propertied elements in the Central Rada, since the Cadets left it long ago. It includes, starting from the Trudoviks, all the socialist parties of the region. Its membership includes over 200 peasant deputies, elected at a congress of peasant representatives from the population of the regions; over 150 workers' deputies; over 150 deputies elected at the most recent congress of soldiers' representatives from 4 million men; and about 70 representatives of all socialist parties of the region. If you are interested in the detailed composition of the Central Rada, it will be sent to you tomorrow. Comrade Bakinsky said nothing about the political and socio-economic platform of the Central Rada. I, too, remain silent on this, but I can provide the necessary information on this question through documents and special acts. Regarding the annexation by the Central Rada of provinces from above, I must state that you are deeply mistaken: even before the Universal, the Yekaterinoslav, Kharkov, and Kherson provincial peasants' congresses declared themselves in favor of joining Ukraine. The Yekaterinoslav and, if I am not mistaken, Kharkov and Odessa Soviets of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies declared themselves in favor of joining. That is all.

Marksizm i sovremennost [Marxism and the Modern Age]. 2000. No. 1. pp. 3-5.

TsGAOOU. F. 57. Op. 2. Storage unit 486. L. 76-84.